Interview with Pope Francis: «We have not yet received an answer from Putin. Zelensky? I called it the first day of the conflict, but now is not the time to go to Kiev. I spoke for 40 minutes with Patriarch Kirill, I told him: we are not state clerics. Italy is doing a good job, knee surgery today “
The phrase has been repeated many times these days. With grace and a broad smile. And that’s the first thing you say (Fiorenza Sarzanini, deputy director of Courier) as soon as you enter the living room of Santa Marta: “Excuse me if I can’t get up to greet you, the doctors told me that I have to sit by the knee
».
Today Pope Bergoglio will have to make a small intervention, an infiltration, to overcome a pain that does not allow him to move, to participate in the way he would like to hearings and meetings with the faithful. “I have a torn ligament, I’ll do an operation with infiltrations and we’ll see – he says -. I’ve been like this for a long time, I can’t walk. Once the popes used to go with the gestatorial chair. It also takes a little pain, humiliation… ».
But this is not the Pontiff’s main concern. Talking about what is happening in the heart of Europe causes him torment. “Stop”, stop the war is the appeal he has been shouting since last February 24, when the Russian armies invaded Ukraine and death and destruction became a terrible element of our European lives. He repeats it again, that appeal. With the discouragement of those who see that nothing is happening.
There is a streak of pessimism in the words with which Bergoglio recalls the efforts he is making, together with the Secretary of State of the Holy See Pietro Parolin (“Truly a great diplomat, in the tradition of Agostino Casaroli, knows how to move in that world, I trust him a lot and I rely on”), to obtain at least the cease-fire.
The Pontiff lines up all the attempts e he repeats several times that he is ready to go to Moscow. “The first day of the war I called the Ukrainian president Zelensky on the phone – says Pope Francis – Putin, on the other hand, I didn’t call him. I heard it in December for my birthday but this time no, I didn’t call. I wanted to make a clear gesture for the whole world to see and for this I went to the Russian ambassador. I asked them to explain, I said “please stop”. And then I asked Cardinal Parolin, after twenty days of war, to send Putin the message that I was willing to go to Moscow. Of course, it was necessary for the Kremlin leader to allow a few windows. We have not yet received an answer and we are still insisting, even if I fear that Putin cannot and does not want to have this meeting right now. But so much brutality how can you not stop it? Twenty-five years ago we experienced the same thing with Rwanda ».
NATO and the Kremlin
Pope Francis’ concern is that Putin, for the moment, will not stop. He also tries to think about the roots of this behavior, about the reasons that push him to such a brutal war. Perhaps the “barking of NATO at Russia’s door” prompted the Kremlin leader to react badly and trigger the conflict. “An anger that I don’t know if it was provoked – he wonders – but perhaps eased yes”.
And now those who care about peace are faced with the great question of supply of weapons, on the part of Western nations, to the Ukrainian resistance. An issue that does not all agree, that splits the Catholic and the pacifist world. The Pontiff appears doubtful, his doctrine has always had at the center the refusal of the arms race, the no to escalation in the production of weapons that sooner or later someone decides to test on the field, causing death and suffering. «I can’t answer, I’m too far away, to the question of whether it is right to supply the Ukrainians – he reasons -. The clear thing is that weapons are being tested in that land. The Russians now know that tanks are of little use and are thinking of other things. Wars are fought for this: to test the weapons we have produced. This was the case in the Spanish Civil War before the Second World War. The arms trade is a scandal, few oppose it. Two or three years ago a ship loaded with weapons arrived in Genoa which had to be transferred to a large cargo ship to transport them to Yemen. The port workers did not want to do it. They said: let’s think of the children of Yemen. It’s a small thing, but a nice gesture. There should be so many like that. ”
Francesco’s words, in conversation, always return to what is more right to do. Many have asked him for the symbolic gesture of a visit to Ukraine. But the answer is clear: “I’m not going to Kiev for now – explains -. I sent Cardinal Michael Czerny, (prefect of the Dicastery for the Promotion of Integral Human Development) and Cardinal Konrad Krajewski, (Pope’s almsgiver) who went there for the fourth time. But I feel I don’t have to go. First I have to go to Moscow, first I have to meet Putin. But I’m a priest too, what can I do? I do what I can. If Putin opened the door … ».
The Orthodox Church
Could Patriarch Kirill, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, be the man who can persuade the Kremlin leader to open a door? The Pontiff shakes his head and says: «I spoke to Kirill for 40 minutes via zoom. The first twenty with a card in hand he read me all the justifications for the war. I listened and told him: I don’t understand anything about this. Brother, we are not state clericswe cannot use the language of politics, but that of Jesus. We are shepherds of the same holy people of God. For this we must seek ways of peace, to put an end to the firing of weapons. The Patriarch cannot transform himself into Putin’s altar boy. I had an scheduled meeting with him in Jerusalem on June 14th. It would be our second face to face, nothing to do with the war. But now he too agrees: let’s stop, it could be an ambiguous signal ».
The Via Crucis
The alarm of a world war in bits that Pope Bergoglio had done in past years is therefore becoming something that must shake everyone’s conscience. Because, for the Pontiff, we are also beyond the small pieces, we are in a reality that can really lead to a world war.
“My alarm was not a merit, but only the observation of reality: Syria, Yemen, Iraq, in Africa one war after another. There are international interests in every bit. One cannot think that a free state can wage war on another free state. In Ukraine it was the others who created the conflict. The only thing that is blamed on the Ukrainians is that they reacted in the Donbass, but let’s talk about ten years ago. That argument is old. Of course they are a proud people. For example, when for the Via Crucis there were two women, one Russian and the other Ukrainian, who had to read the prayer together, they made it a scandal. So I called Krajewski who was there and he said to me: stop, don’t read the prayer. They are right, even if we don’t fully understand. So they remained silent. They have a susceptibility, they feel defeated or enslaved because in the Second World War they paid so much. So many dead men, it is a martyr people. But we are also attentive to what can happen now in Transnistria ».
The wait for May 9th
The conversation about the war draws to a close and the synthesis seems pessimistic: «Pfor peace there is not enough will – is the bitter observation of Francis – the war is terrible and we must shout it out. This is why I wanted to publish a book with Solferino that has as its subtitle The courage to build peace.
Orbán, when i met him he told me that the Russians have a planthat on May 9 it will all be over. I hope that is the case, so we would also understand the speed of the escalation of these days. Because now it’s not just the Donbass, it’s Crimea, it’s Odessa, it’s taking away the Black Sea port from Ukraine, that’s all. I am a pessimistbut we must make every possible gesture to stop the war ».
The politics of Rome
The gaze is also turned to the actions that our country can implement. “Italy is doing a good job – says the Pontiff -. The relationship with Mario Draghi is good, it is very good. In the past, when he was at the European Central Bank, I asked him for advice. He is a direct and simple person. I admired Giorgio Napolitanowhich is great, and now I admire very much Sergio Mattarella. I respect a lot Emma Bonino: I don’t share his ideas but he knows Africa better than anyone. In front of this woman I say, hat».
He doesn’t want to talk too much about politics, and about Italian politicians. Recommend to all seriousness and the ability to manage the successes of the moment that often become ephemeral. There is still time, at the end of the interview, to take stock of the change in the Church, the challenge to which he has dedicated and will devote the utmost commitment.
“I have often found a pre-conciliar mentality that disguised itself as a conciliar. On continents like Latin America and Africa it was easier. In Italy it is perhaps more difficult. But there are good priests, good parish priests, good nuns, good laymen. For example, one of the things I try to do to renew the Italian Church is not to change the bishops too much. Cardinal Gantin said that the bishop is the spouse of the Church, every bishop is the spouse of the Church for life. When there is a habit, it is good. This is why I try to name priests, as happened in Genoa, Turin, Calabria. I believe this is it the renewal of the Italian Church. Now the next assembly will have to choose the new president of the CEI, I try to find one who wants to make a nice change. I prefer him to be a cardinal, to be authoritative. And that he has the possibility to choose the secretary, that he can say: I want to work with this person ».
The last thought is for Cardinal Martini of which the Pope re-read a “perfect” article, after 11 September, on terrorism and war. “It is so relevant that I asked to republish it in the Osservatore romano. Continue in the newspapers to investigate reality, to tell it. It is a service to the country for which I will always thank you ».
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