A demonstration after the death of George Floyd in Boston on May 30, 2020. – AFP
- The death of George Floyd, a black man arrested by a police officer, set fire to Minneapolis and other cities in the United States. His death sparked a debate on the treatment of minorities by the police.
- In France, associations and institutions also denounce targeting of minorities by the police.
- 20 Minutes asked the sociologist Sebastian Roché, on the apprehension of this question on each side of the Atlantic.
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In the United States, the
George Floyd’s death sparked debate over police treatment of minorities, including black people. Protests against police brutality and racism
have taken place in recent days, from Boston to Los Angeles, from Philadelphia to Seattle. But also in many countries like Great Britain, Germany or France, where the police are sometimes singled out by associations or institutions which accuse them of targeting more minorities.
Are the French and American situations really comparable? For the knowledge, 20 minutes asked Sebastian Roché, director of research at the CNRS and author of the book “Police in democracy” *.
Can we compare the situation between France and the United States in terms of police violence?
The number of people killed by police in the United States is much higher than in France. In our country, in recent years, there have been between 15 and 20 cases per year for 70 million inhabitants while in the United States, there are about a thousand for 320 million inhabitants. Compared to the population, it’s about twelve times more, the gap is huge!
On the other hand, there are many common points between France and the United States concerning the practice of identity checks, which the Americans call “Stop and Frisk”.
That is to say ?
In France as in the United States, the police will particularly target minorities in terms of identity checks, which is not the case in Germany, for example. However, an identity check is an interaction with the police that can get out of hand: people can rebel, police use force, sometimes physical violence. Often, checks are the starting point for a situation that will get worse.
Police discrimination on an ethnic basis is therefore a reality both in France and in the United States. But this discrimination does not translate into the same levels of violence. If there are so many black deaths during controls in the United States, it is also because those arrested are often armed, which is not the case in France.
An investigation by the Defender of Rights pointed out, in 2017, that young men “perceived as black or Arab” are “20 times more likely than others to be controlled” than the whole population …
It is best known because the Defender of Rights has constitutional status. But the studies available for twenty years systematically show an ethnic disproportion during the controls. You can consult the results of the surveys carried out by the European Agency for Fundamental Rights or that of the Open Society on stations. I have also carried out work with Dietrich Oberwittler which compares the situation in France and in
Germany. All this work shows that police discrimination exists in France, and not on the other side of the Rhine.
How is that explained? Do you think the police are racist?
I think it is very important to know that discrimination is real, as shown by all the results available for twenty years, in Paris, Lyon, Grenoble, Marseille, everywhere. However, the government does not want to recognize that the problem exists. Therefore, it does not implement mechanisms to limit it. It’s like saying, “There is no pandemic so there is no need for a public health policy.”
The reality of the problem is denied by the executive. Just last week, in an interview with Release, Laurent Nunez [secrétaire d’Etat auprès du ministère de l’Intérieur] claimed that the French police were not racist. For Place Beauvau, this problem does not exist! This is at the heart of the problem: if we do not recognize it, we cannot improve things.
This is a constant position: the Interior Ministry, under the presidency of François Hollande, also refused to set up identity check receipts. Without this device, the police cannot, as an organization, notice this problem. She only observes it in extreme cases, when there is a trial. But she does not know the mass of police behavior.
What you are saying is that things have not changed since the 1980s and the death of Malik Oussekine …
Nothing has changed for forty years! And this is a difference from the United States where the situation is worse, if we look at the number of blacks killed by the police compared to whites. But what is interesting is that some of the officers recognize the morally unacceptable nature of police violence. We saw this when many police chiefs or sheriffs participated in the processions in support of George Flyod. In France, that does not exist, there is not, to my knowledge, a police officer who protests with associations of victims. There is really a difference in awareness.
Is the technique used by the police officer accused of killing Georges Floyd also used in France?
It is a technique that is not in American textbooks. But it was used by an agent who decided to do it like this. It’s a bit like the Adama Traore case. It is not written that three gendarmes can crush a person’s back. It is a practice, but it is not taught as such in schools. From a legal point of view, this is an irregular practice. It is then up to the judges to decide whether the irregularity of this practice is liable, or not, to criminal prosecution.
Riots have broken out in several cities in the United States in recent days. In terms of policing, what are the differences with France, which experienced the demonstrations of “yellow vests” a few months ago?
It’s a question of size. In the United States, 75 cities have been affected for the past four days, and the levels of destruction are incomparable with what we have known during the demonstrations of “yellow vests”. There were, of course, but they were small compared to what is happening in Washington, for example.
In the United States, it is mainly the municipalities that manage the police for the most part. But to put an end to these riots, the states concerned mobilized, and they sent in particular the national guard, which is a kind of reserve whose action is decided by the governor. Finally, Donald Trump has announced his intention to mobilize the army! In France, politicians have already requested that the army be sent to the suburbs. But Trump really does have the power …
*“Police in Democracy” by Sebastian Roché, Grasset editions, 384 pages, 24.90 euros
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